Welcome back to the Wisdom Lifestyle Money Show. I'm your host, Scott Dillingham. And today I have a very special guest with us today. Carmen DeSilva. Welcome Carmen.
Carmen Da Silva:Thank you, Scott. Good to be here.
Scott Dillingham:Yeah. So I'm really excited to have you on. So for those that don't know Carmen is a CPA working with Canadians that, invest money in The States. You're also a mom, an investor, like you're doing all these awesome things. So I'd love to hear your story on how all this came to fruition and how you got, you know, from being young and whatever to the expert that you are today.
Carmen Da Silva:Okay. Well, it's a long story. I've been in the business for quite a few years. I originally started as a CPA at Pricewaterhouse, did my articling there, specialized in tax programs. So with that in hand, when I got married, I joined the family business and really took our office to what we call, wealth management centers, or sometimes they're referred to as family office structures.
Carmen Da Silva:You know, with the tax, estate planning, insurance license, stock license, all of that. So we wrapped ourselves around the top advisors across Canada and really built a portal to integrate solutions is what I call it, you know. So maybe when the children were, I don't know, around six, seven, eight, decided to focus a little more on the family and moved to Florida. That's back in 2003, you know, so thought it'd be temporary, enjoyed it enough that we're still back and forth or twenty odd years later and sold the block of business. I would say that really I got lucky, you know, because luck they say is what opportunity and preparedness meet.
Carmen Da Silva:And so for me with the sale of the business, I don't know if you remember the mortgage crisis two thousand and eight.
Scott Dillingham:That's when I started.
Carmen Da Silva:Yeah. That's when I really got involved in single family rentals. Prior to that, dabbled in one property here or there in Canada. But really bought a big portfolio to replace the cash flow I needed from selling the business. Right.
Carmen Da Silva:And so teamed up with from there. You know, although I was retired at that point, you never stop when you're an entrepreneur. So introduced it to family and friends and really worked with a broker who was also a property management company. He wanted to set that up for his clients. So we really bought in bulk 25 properties originally in Florida, then another batch during the COVID pandemic.
Carmen Da Silva:I think, I can't remember the exact timeframe, another batch of 50. So managed quite a few single family rentals, started in condos, got out of that very quickly, understanding the mortgage issues with owning condos and I guess the play that some of the Canadian hedge funds had, even in our properties, one hedge fund bought quite a bit there. We thought we'll ride their coattails, but they ended up selling in 2012 for just currency. So sometimes, you know, when there's a big block controlling it, it's really hard to sell some of those properties because of mortgages that the banks didn't like the ownership of so many properties by one entity. Anyway, I moved more to single family rentals.
Carmen Da Silva:The issue I had, it was great to buy, very difficult to mortgage though, right? Banks at that time weren't lending at all. So fast forward, when I set up SHARE, I'm a co founder at SHARE, CFO as co founder of SHARE. And really we started SHARE to introduce the concept of buying single family entities from end to end, almost as easy as buying a mutual fund, let's say. And even how you reinvest your rentals, that kind of thing.
Carmen Da Silva:So with that, we started to get more into it. And I'm sure that's what you focus on a lot in your podcast. With that, we got into more of the DSAR loans, the idea of borrowing against the property to buy more. So I started to leverage. I took six properties at one point, used that as my down payment and bought $2.300000 properties in Texas.
Carmen Da Silva:So the idea of building now, I don't really have to use my own cash anymore. Now I build through the portfolio I have, refinancing, none to buy more.
Scott Dillingham:Mhmm. Teaching No. That's awesome.
Carmen Da Silva:Lessons. Yeah. Teaching those lessons to others.
Scott Dillingham:Yeah. And it's pretty cool. And and so for those that maybe are listening to this episode before hearing the previous one, so the previous one, we actually had one of your customers on who who does mortgages for us, Derek Wormspecker. He, he talked about his, his journey. So that's, that's super cool.
Scott Dillingham:So great. So I know your, your main role, right? You even mentioned it is CFO, right? So you're dealing with financials and tax stuff and being a CPA. I know that's your specialties.
Scott Dillingham:What are some things that a Canadian should look at or consider even when they want to invest from Canada to The States? What do you tell your clients that you talk to?
Carmen Da Silva:Well, in general, I always say there's three things you should consider when buying, especially in The US. But I think it's there for both sides of the border. My biggest go to is what's the taxation, you know, so how much tax do I pay? Each state is different. There's tax free states, but also understanding the cross border tax taxation, right?
Carmen Da Silva:The fact that you pay in The States, but you also pay to Canada because that's where you're resident of. So with taxation, I'm always saying, look at where you're resident of and where the property is residents. Those are the two main factors. So if I'm a resident in Canada, I pay my US tax, but then I also file that same information, my Canadian tax return, and usually getting a foreign tax credit for what I've paid in The US.
Scott Dillingham:Okay.
Carmen Da Silva:But state wise, each state also wants to have their taxes. So where you purchase your property is going to be important. So as an example, if I buy in Texas, I have no state tax return, but I still have the federal return to do. Whereas in some of the other states, might have to file a federal and the state tax return, right? Where you're resident of as a person and where you're asset as a resident of are two key considerations in taxation, right?
Scott Dillingham:Interesting.
Carmen Da Silva:Some of the things that most people may not realize is that each state also wants you to be registered in that state. So usually whatever entity that you create, I usually suggest like a parent entity if you will. I like Wyoming because it's
Scott Dillingham:I'm there. Yeah, it's privacy.
Carmen Da Silva:And so I use that more like a parent holding company and then I'll register that in each state that I'm buying in, or sometimes I'll set up a subsidiary in each state. So I might just do a little entity under my parent holding company to hold all my Texas properties. A separate one maybe for North Carolina, that type of thing.
Scott Dillingham:Right? That's interesting.
Carmen Da Silva:Yeah. So again, it's it's foreign registering to do business in the state you're in. Yep. No taxation.
Scott Dillingham:Now this is I guess it's a bit unique because Trump didn't get into too much details. But I heard or I watched a video last night. I'm assuming it was from yesterday where he said that we should get rid of income tax. And I don't know if he's referring to corp or personal. Definitely personal, but I don't know about corp.
Scott Dillingham:And then have tariffs for outsiders. Right. And then that's how we can generate our income base. So let's just pretend that he does that for corporations. So does that mean then cause there wouldn't be any flow through, right?
Scott Dillingham:Because you're not getting that tax credit because you're not paying tax. So then you just pay the Canadian taxes, whatever that would be over here. Is that how that would work?
Carmen Da Silva:Well, the first thing is I would suggest that he's probably looking at more corporate tax and personal. Okay. Because he's really all for businesses, entrepreneurship, and it may be personal too for the entrepreneurs. So first thing first, if it is flowing through the individual and lower tax rates, that's a great deal, right? Because first of all, most of the tax coming from rental properties or the tax planning, let's say, comes more from when you sell the asset, the capital gains tax, than it is on the rental income, right?
Carmen Da Silva:Rental income, we can depreciate, we can borrow and have interest expenses, we can even create losses against our employment income or other income. So I'm never as worried about the annual taxes. It's more of the capital gains on the sale of assets.
Scott Dillingham:Okay.
Carmen Da Silva:So with that said, personal capital gains is going to be better in Canada and The US. So I like personally held income for that purpose. But if it were corporately held, as you said, the rates right now are pretty decent in America. It's only 21% with the state tax, let's say 25, right? The problem though, is even if, and this is where I, that's why I don't usually use a corporation.
Carmen Da Silva:Even if Trump comes in and says, oh, zero tax, it's really the Canadian government's tax system that you have to follow as a Canadian resident. Right? And unfortunately, Canada has gotten worse with the, I'll call it passive investment corporations. So if you have a corporation in The U. S.
Carmen Da Silva:And it's for passive investments, meaning you've got someone else managing the property, you aren't doing all this yourself, you're pretty well paying the same tax rate as a Canadian investment holding company, which is the top rate. You may get the credit for what you pay in America, but you're still at this high rate because of the Canadian tax code.
Scott Dillingham:Yeah. No, makes sense. Yeah. It's just, it's really interesting to see.
Carmen Da Silva:Yeah, so myself personally, whatever the rules are, I would take advantage of it probably through a personal tax system rather than a corporate one, because we have this, I'll call it, FAPI foreign accrual property income. It throws us off a little bit. That doesn't mean that no one should set up a corporation. A lot of people that have their retained earnings built up in Canada may want to deploy that through a company in Canada to a US corporation. So there's a strategy for all types of entity structures, but our main go to for Canadians is more a flow through structure.
Scott Dillingham:Understood. Yeah. That makes sense. And then, so let's say, let's say I'm Canadian, I'm just listening to this for the first time and I've decided, you know, I want to invest in The States. Do you think that they should use their current Canadian accountant or should they switch to one that understands both countries?
Scott Dillingham:Like, can you have a separate US and Canadian and and it mesh well together or should they get one accountant that does both?
Carmen Da Silva:Well, that's a trickier question because for years when seminars were done by US, I guess, estate agents, various people that come to Canada promoting the idea of real estate, they never talk about entity creation for not just tax, but also for personal asset protection or probate or estate planning, right? And that's going to be critical when you start to build assets outside your principal residence in your home country, you know? And so having the knowledge of U. Tax is going to be important because one of the things I noticed is even when they do talk to Canadians, they tend to use structures that they're used to in America. And those are wrong structures because sometimes we don't have them in Canada.
Carmen Da Silva:So I'll give you a good example. The US, they use a lot the structure called a limited liability corporation and it gives you the benefits of being a corporation. If you want, you can check box it to a corporation or flow through, so you've got some flexibility, but the idea of the protection is why they do it. Now in Canada, we have no such thing, so we call it a hybrid entity. And because we have no such thing, there's a mismatch in timing.
Carmen Da Silva:And so the flow through or the credits don't work at the same time. So you end up almost paying a double tax if you're using US structures that we don't have in Canada. So understanding it from, if you're using a US accountant, they should have some knowledge of Canadian laws or vice versa. If you use a Canadian accountant, make sure they have a US cross border tax knowledge as well as, you know, because it is important to understand the two structures and two taxation systems.
Scott Dillingham:No. You're right. And I knew that answer because I'm actually dual citizen, and I've had to file tax in The States forever. So I needed a professional that that did both. Yes.
Scott Dillingham:Even things as simple as I know we're talking more advanced as far as real estate, but even, like, it goes the other way too, like, tax free savings accounts. I can get that in Canada, but in The States, they don't recognize that. So it's not, it's not allowed. It's forbidden. They have
Carmen Da Silva:similar things, you know, so they do have, I mean, a Roth IRA is like our, our TFSA, right? Their IRA, I mean, yeah IRA is like RRSP. So there's conceptually the similar assets, we just have to know which ones are applicable for Canadians.
Scott Dillingham:Yeah, absolutely.
Carmen Da Silva:Yeah, and the other side of it is, it's also, it's not just about tax and asset protection. In the estate planning side, you almost have to know some rules too because yes, you may have a will in Canada, but if it gets probated and it's stuck here, may not be able to do something on your assets over there. So sometimes I like to have a local will in the jurisdiction you bought the property. It's very simple to structure things, but knowing, I guess the administrative headaches, because it's not always about costs, you know, sometimes administratively might help hold up your ability to do things. So it's can't be simple.
Carmen Da Silva:It doesn't have to be complicated, but it's just like you said, you need to have the knowledge or someone on your team that's knowledgeable enough to help you do it.
Scott Dillingham:No, that's awesome. Now I'm also curious, right? Because somebody listening to this might be like, hey, I wanna work with Carmen. How does that work? Can like people reach out to you for this type of service?
Scott Dillingham:Or do you only do it through share? Like how's that set up?
Carmen Da Silva:So basically we're an end to end, know, really for real estate in The US, single family rentals in The US. So we've partnered up from entity creation to, so we've got like contracts with, you know, specialized areas from entity all the way to taxation, right?
Scott Dillingham:Okay.
Carmen Da Silva:So at the beginning we help based on the buy box or where you're where you want to purchase, what state you want to buy in. Maybe we want to know, you know, do you want cash flow appreciation? Is it the first or the only property? Are you building a portfolio? So like any good professional, we kind of want to know the time horizon, the rate of return, the objective of what you're buying, right?
Carmen Da Silva:So once we have that, we help you set up an entity. After that, our investment team then helps you with the buy box, know, so it's, we have an acquisition team and we also have the software to then, you know, score the market to see where's the best place to buy based on your selection of cap rates, as well as the state you might want to buy in. From there, once that's done, due diligence is done, budgets come in. If the numbers still work, we go ahead with the purchase, we go into leasing mode. So we have a team of property managers that we work with across America.
Carmen Da Silva:So after all that's done, our role at CHAIR is really an active participation in asset management. So why do people need an asset manager over a property manager? We've got people after they bought, think there was a client who had 40 properties, but various property managers. So how do you pull it all into one portal organized so that you could see all the assets, but also make decisions in a more integrated fashion. So once a year, kind of look at people, the investors portfolio, help them decide is it time to refinance?
Carmen Da Silva:Do we increase the rents? So we're working on every line item on a real estate portfolio. Because we have institutional grade property managers, even with our asset management fee, you can be at much lower rate than at the retail level going to a property manager yourself. Same thing on the insurance. We have a master policy contract, so you get 40% discount on insurance.
Carmen Da Silva:So when it comes to taxation, because that's the question you asked me, we've also teamed up with tax advisors, tax accountants in Canada and The US so that if you don't have someone, we can refer you to one of our partners.
Scott Dillingham:Super cool.
Carmen Da Silva:And what's good about that is with consent, we share the file. So we've already got the folder of the entity. We've already got the, you know, your settlement statements. We've actually not only got the documents, we prepare all of the financials every month. So we really just feed that into a Schedule E, which is what you have to file The US with the, you know, your returns, whether it's corporate or personal.
Carmen Da Silva:And that same schedule is what you're going to convert to Canadian dollars to file in Canada. So most documents are already pre prepared for your accountants anyways.
Scott Dillingham:Mhmm. No. I love it. I've seen the back end of your portal, and it's super cool how you can track literally everything. That alone, right, just not having a necessarily having a bookkeeper, right?
Scott Dillingham:Because you guys kind of do all of that stuff.
Carmen Da Silva:Exactly. It's bookkeeping, it's organizing the documents, making sure the invoices are there if you're audited, all of that needs it. Even on our property tax, just to give you one more area that we've kind of reduced costs, if you will, we've teamed up with a property tax team that not only tells us where on the calendar to pay off the taxes and everything, they actually do reassessment on property taxes to see if they can get your property tax low. That's a very time consuming project, so most people don't take it on. But because we go on a fees only basis, why not?
Carmen Da Silva:Let them research all our clients. If they find something and we get a discount, they get their share.
Scott Dillingham:Nice. So do they do that annually? Like will they review a I'm property
Carmen Da Silva:sure how often because I think with data science today, we give them our data tapes, we update, they update. We're always looking at where the possibilities are. So I don't even think it's annual. It's any time that something's indicated, you know, because it could be in midstream when someone's gone from one type of ownership to another, right? Because you've got home ownership versus investment ownership.
Carmen Da Silva:It does trigger certain tax rates that change property tax. So they know all the nuances and they know how to fight the battle, you know. So I really like the idea that from all angles, it's not just income tax because remember the states that have no income tax are probably the higher in the property tax. They got to make up for it somewhere.
Scott Dillingham:Yep. Yep, absolutely.
Carmen Da Silva:Look at all angles of taxation.
Scott Dillingham:And you're right, there are some states, and we don't have to dive into it here, but there are some states that when they discover that it's an investment property, they're going to increase your property taxes.
Carmen Da Silva:Well, that's the thing because remember, we are also helping with pro formas. And so in our pro formas, as part of that team that we've got, they will give us a pro form a once it switches so that we're using the right valuations as well as the right property tax when we're projecting out, when we're escrowing for, you know, because I like to smoothen out income, so we tend to collect a monthly escrow for repairs as well as tax and insurance so that we can then pay the tax on behalf of the investor. So we wanna get as close as we can to the real numbers. And so we have some of those based on the institutional partners we have.
Scott Dillingham:Mhmm. No, it's super cool. It's super cool. And one thing that I discovered about you just from being at different events when you were there or or being online and hearing you speak, but this is something that not only you're doing for yourself, right? You're investing, you're building the portfolio and doing all these things, but you're very avid about teaching your kids how to do it.
Scott Dillingham:Can you tell me more about that? Like, obviously parents
Carmen Da Silva:thought it inspired me. Love I love when the next generation gets involved. I think, you know, when I look at myself and my own personal history, my parents were immigrant parents and I think we grew up wanting things, you know, the house, the car, the TVs, never wanted to lack anything, you know. So our children see us with everything and so they're not, I like the new generation thinking, they're not into things. They are okay to rent and not buy their first home and have this big mortgage tie them down.
Carmen Da Silva:And so my education for the young, you know, if that's the mentality, is to really buy real estate, buy it early, because that early planning then can help you focus on children and marriage and house later, you know? Otherwise you get caught up in a mortgage and then you can't get out into anything else in the investment world because everything is gone. That's the trap sometimes. Investing for cash flow and in tax deductible, because again, remember my children are all university graduates, so their incomes are high. They're looking for tax breaks.
Carmen Da Silva:Yes. RRSPs are there. But I like the tax breaks that real estate brings too. Oh, my son, as an example, his first internship, he bought his first property and in the that's the beauty of it. I didn't realize that till I entered The States and bought my first properties.
Carmen Da Silva:The price points or entry level properties are like fabulous. You can't say something like we're in Toronto. My nephew, I remember he was buying a $750,000 condo, one bedroom, really small, you know, one bedroom for himself. I said to him, why do you need the condo yet? Take that money, 500,000.
Carmen Da Silva:You can buy five properties at a 100,000 US, like with the exchange and everything else. And now you've got five properties earning a thousand a month, you know, so you've got $5,000. You can live wherever you want Downtown Toronto for that. Right. And you still got assets, still got performance and appreciation.
Carmen Da Silva:So we teach our children, our nephews, our nieces very early. So my son's first property bought on his own. The second one he bought with his sister. This last year he bought with his roommate. So they're continually buying whether it's single or sometimes shared with a family member.
Carmen Da Silva:We structured so each owns their own unit so one can buy and sell do their own thing. They're not tied to the hitting So each yeah, so they start early. The downside and I'm trying to change that is sometimes they don't even realize they've got this income stream because the other day he said to me, you know what, have to set up a three to six month emergency fund. I'm thinking, oh great, you're getting to planning because he set up a bank account. He's got so much cash in there.
Carmen Da Silva:He's trying to decide do I put the RSP, first time home buyers plan, TFSA? And so he talked about this, you know, emergency fund. And I said to him, why do you think you need an emergency fund? You know, because the kids are already retired the day they get their first job, meaning they're making as much as their paycheck from cash flow assets. And that gives them the ability to leave jobs and think about house moves.
Carmen Da Silva:There's no restrictions for them. But if he's not seeing that going into his account, it's out of sight, out of mind. Yeah. You know, his focus is on the account that his paycheck's going into. So one of the things that we want a chair is to notify them.
Carmen Da Silva:You ping them every time a deposit goes in, every time their assets appreciate in value because then they can see and feel that cash flow coming in.
Scott Dillingham:I love it.
Carmen Da Silva:That's really important. Yeah, because once you have that sense of cashflow, because really that cashflow mentality helps you create, it gives you a creation mindset, right? Whereas if you don't have a cashflow mind, you have a money mindset, it's always lack. You're always spending and you know this lack of money is always there at the back of your mind. And so if we can shift to cash flow mindset, it's huge.
Carmen Da Silva:I
Scott Dillingham:love it. That reminded me of, I don't know if you ever played it probably, but Robert Kiyosaki's cash flow one zero one game.
Carmen Da Silva:Yes.
Scott Dillingham:Getting out of the rat race. Yeah. You're helping them out of the rat race Yeah. By the time they have their job.
Carmen Da Silva:You say that, and I hadn't played it. I heard so much about it. So a few years ago, someone in one of the investment groups I was with, he had the game. So we put six people together. We actually played it and what I learned from it was awesome.
Carmen Da Silva:Like it was just amazing because the, I got this lousy card of, I can't remember, automatic I don't know what kind of mechanic. I was a mechanic. And I was making a very low salary and I'm thinking, man, how am I I know all the rules. I know what I wanna do, but how am I gonna do this with little money? Right?
Carmen Da Silva:The person beside me was a teacher, no different. And the one on the right of me, this guy was a pilot making a ton of money. So I'm thinking, this doesn't seem fair. Yeah. He's gonna win.
Carmen Da Silva:Yeah. He's gonna win. Was my thoughts. And so as we pick up these cards, the one on the left of me got a market card and actually not a market card. I can't remember what the other cards called.
Carmen Da Silva:It gave her the ability to buy these stocks at a penny and she bought the stocks, right? A few rounds later, the auction came up, a market card came up that obviously this penny stock went to a thousand of stock and she got so much money that she ended up buying assets and developing, you know, going from house to multis and she won the game.
Scott Dillingham:That's awesome.
Carmen Da Silva:She won the game and I thought to myself, that is so interesting because to me, remember earlier I said luck is when opportunity prepared us meet. She was one of those because it's not only seeing these opportunities, it's being prepared to take them, Right? A lot of us see opportunities that just flies by us. We got a reaction So in what we that's what I learned from her. But the more interesting part was learning what the pilot, right?
Carmen Da Silva:The pilot in the right of me, who I thought would win. He fell on some, you know, whether it was he was having children. So obviously his expenses went up. While as he ran around the corner, got unemployed, so he didn't get paychecks. And you know what he started to do?
Carmen Da Silva:He was so out of the game. He started looking at his phone. He didn't want to play the game anymore. And I'm thinking to myself, that's reality too. Sometimes we freak out and we don't see those opportunities because we're so down on ourselves and so both sides gave me such a good reflection on real world problems and it's not just about real estate itself, it's behavioral, you know And so it's a great game to play.
Carmen Da Silva:Nice to learn, you know, some you might learn things like I did from the game.
Scott Dillingham:Yeah. If you if you want, if you send me your address after, I'll mail you one. I I bought like, this was years ago when they were finishing, like, making them. Like, I think they said, you know, we're not producing them anymore. Oh.
Scott Dillingham:And I got them on sale for, like, a really good price, but I bought, like, 20 of them. I So I got a whole
Carmen Da Silva:that bunch offer.
Scott Dillingham:Brand new, wrapped up, ready to go. Oh. But it's a great game for anybody who has not played it. It really does. Even if you're an investor, doesn't matter because I played it when I was an investor.
Scott Dillingham:And like you said, you always learn something, but I agree. Right? Those higher end cushy jobs, it's always harder to get out of that than something small. And people don't think that. Right?
Scott Dillingham:They think, oh, I work at McDonald's or, like, I can't do this. But actually, it's easier for you too once you just kinda get going. So
Carmen Da Silva:Well, and and then you know what? I I've worked across Canada, and I just came back from Banff, Alberta and I just find mindset is very different from Ontario. We have a lot of employed T4 type of tax returns. So very little planning is done, right? Everyone thinks, I put my money away from RRSPs and I'll get this pension down the road and that's all.
Carmen Da Silva:Whereas out west, you're finding a lot of entrepreneurial or accountants around these farm owned estate planning is going on. They're buying more cattle to reduce their taxes because the inventory is going to reduce taxes, right? So they're like we do in real estate, we're refinancing to get more properties to bring on our tax. They're using a lot more tax planning in their models every year. They're communicating between families because of estate planning.
Carmen Da Silva:All of that's going to help them grow. It's this lack of communication between intergenerational, the lack of planning in general, that's going to they say the bulk of the federal deficit in a white paper for the Canadian government is the death of a taxpayer. Right? Because they've got a lot of money built up with the seniors in RRSPs and capital gains tax because we've got this deemed disposition on debt. And so planning around that transition is going to be critical.
Scott Dillingham:Yeah, I agree. I agree. No, that's really interesting. But we have to wrap up. So, do you produce content online or anything for people to follow you?
Scott Dillingham:Or do you allow clients to contact you directly?
Carmen Da Silva:So, I mean, if anything, LinkedIn, but we have a wealth advice, like I would suggest if you go to shareasfr.com, we do have sessions that you can learn monthly and understand real estate, a US guide even just to understand any of the nuances from being a Canadian investor in The US. So take advantage of the information that's available. We do have certain calls that are part of that so that you know, you can understand for yourself, position and any planning opportunities that you might want to talk about.
Scott Dillingham:That's awesome. No, thanks for sharing that. And I'll make sure to put those those links in the show notes. Yeah. But thanks so much, Carmen.
Scott Dillingham:It was really fun to to get to know you a little better and to to hear your story. So thank you for sharing.
Carmen Da Silva:Thanks, God. Looking forward to our sessions together when we do them live.
Scott Dillingham:Absolutely. Sounds good.
Carmen Da Silva:Okay. Bye for now. Bye. Yeah. Yeah.
Carmen Da Silva:I mean, I don't I feel like so I maybe what you have to do is send me it, right? So that I can kinda listen to it and see what it was like. My problem, I'm
Scott Dillingham:never